Starting a Photography Career and Finding Story Ideas with Underwater Photographer Shane Gross

Episode 132: Starting a Photography Career and Finding Story Ideas with underwater photographer Shane Gross

Shownotes: ConservationVisuals.com/132

(Digitally transcribed, please forgive any typos)

Jaymi Heimbuch:
[00:00:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: Welcome to this episode of Impact, the Conservation Photography podcast. And today's guest is someone whose photography I've been admiring literally four years.

[00:00:11] Jaymi Heimbuch: I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Shane Gross. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:17] Shane Gross: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Um, It's really an honor.

[00:00:21] Jaymi Heimbuch: I've been following your work for what feels like ever and ever and ever. Cuz you started I think the same year that I picked up a camera. Seriously, in 2009. Is that right?

[00:00:32] Shane Gross: Close. Yeah, that's, that's basically when I picked up a camera too, or, or got more serious about, about this and, and started thinking about it in, in terms of like, maybe there's a potential career or maybe not even a career. It was more like, 2009 was when I invested money I didn't have into camera gear and so I was like, okay, I'm gonna take this seriously.

[00:00:54] Shane Gross: I wanna be a good photographer. So yeah, we start at the same time, I guess,

[00:00:59] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Oh, [00:01:00] that's so awesome. Well, I always start out this podcast with the same question, which is for anyone who hasn't been following your work for years, who is Shane in the world?

[00:01:10] Shane Gross: well, first of all, shame on them Second of all um, who is Shane Gross? I'm a Canadian conservation photographer based on Vancouver Island. I grew up in Regina, Saskatchewan, which is far from the ocean and was a normal kid, but interested in nature. I grew up going to the lake a lot, fishing a lot.

[00:01:36] Shane Gross: I wanted to be closer to fish. I had this kind of obsession with fish. And then as I got older, that grew into an obsession with sharks, even though I'd never seen one in real life. I knew where every book in the library was that had anything to do with sharks. Any presentation where we got to pick our own topic was about sharks.

[00:01:53] Shane Gross: I was a shark nerd. Every piece of clothing I own has sharks on it. Most of it still does. uh, And [00:02:00] then, you know, 2009 came around and I had already, you know, I graduated business school and packed Australia for a year and was starting to think like, oh, maybe the business world isn't where I'm going to feel most fulfilled.

[00:02:13] Shane Gross: So I bought a camera and was like, okay, I'm gonna take this seriously. And I started going on trips to photograph different shark species or other cool, really cool, you know, ocean animals. And it just sort of deepened my love and obsession with the ocean. And then in 2012, I moved to The Bahamas, which was a place that had been close to my heart for a long time.

[00:02:35] Shane Gross: I first got SCUBA certified in The Bahamas. . So I moved to The Bahamas, became a dive instructor, and that's where I really got to feel at home in the ocean. Coming from Saskatchewan, I never, I didn't understand how tides worked, and it was just like still mysterious to me, so I got to spend a lot of time in the water, got really comfortable as a scuba diver, put [00:03:00] in literally thousands and thousands of hours in the water, scouting spots, teaching people, seeing what the potential dangers are, and got really confident in the water and was also practicing photography along the way.

[00:03:13] Shane Gross: And as I got better as a photographer, I started to see the potential impact of my photos for local conservation there in The Bahamas. Fast forward a bit, covid hits, and suddenly I have to leave The Bahamas and come back to Canada. . But I didn't want to go back to Landlock Saskatchewan. So I moved out to the west coast of Vancouver Island and have been here since, you know, sort of the start of Covid, so about three years.

[00:03:44] Shane Gross: So I'm still sort of learning what the issues and everything are here on Vancouver Island, which is on the west coast of Canada. And still sort of have some, irons in the fire in The Bahamas as well. But mostly I'm focusing or trying to focus on local stories here on [00:04:00] Vancouver Island. Hopefully that's not too long of a version.

[00:04:03] Jaymi Heimbuch: I love it. No, that's great. I, I'm so interested because the experience of being an underwater photographer in The Bahamas is so different from being under the water on Vancouver Island or off the coast. And so what has that been like for you as a, as an underwater photographer, changing environments that you're in so dramatically?

[00:04:26] Shane Gross: Well, it's, it's been, it's been ups and downs. On the one hand, I've got all these new cool animals and environments to photograph, and so it's, it's very freeing and it opens up this whole world of cold water diving in The Bahamas. I, I, when I lived there, I'd only dove in warm water. So if I was gonna travel, I only felt confident in going to other warm water destinations here on Vancouver WA Island, it's cold water.

[00:04:54] Shane Gross: I'm in a dry suit. It is a different diving experience. [00:05:00] and a new set of skills. So getting comfortable with that has opened up new destinations. Like this past summer, I, I went to Alaska and went scuba diving, which is something I probably wouldn't have done if I was still living in The Bahamas. The intimidating part is that it's all new animals and environments that I don't understand as well as I understood the ones in The Bahamas, and the conservation landscape here is so much more complex that I'm, I'm treading quite lightly because I don't feel like I understand the issues as well as I need to for tackling some of the stories that are on my doorstep.

[00:05:42] Shane Gross: I'm, I'm slowly picking away at them. I'm going out and shooting here and there but I'm not like super strong opinionated coming out of the gate because there's a lot going on here and there's a lot of history here that I don't fully understand.

[00:05:58] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:58] Shane Gross: So that's the [00:06:00] harder side of it.

[00:06:01] Jaymi Heimbuch: Yeah. I'm gonna return to this question because I was totally thinking more like, so what's visibility like under the water and shooting? But now you're bringing it into a whole nother realm of, of conversation, which I'm really interested in, which is landing in a new place and taking the time to really understand the complexity because I think it, it is so easy and I've watched several people kind of land in a new area and be super fired up and excited and ready to help, ready to make a change.

[00:06:30] Jaymi Heimbuch: Noticing, you know, things that they might take issue with or, or where conservation conversations can happen. It's so critical to take that step back because there is so much history in an area or things that are in the works that might not be as visible and so on. So when you're landing in a new place, taking some time to really start to dig into that is a very big deal because then you're gonna be able to actually shape your stories in a way that have an impact and don't just piss people [00:07:00] off or look very skewed or seem very naive.

[00:07:04] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so when you're diving into all of that what are some of the resources that you're starting to lean on to be able to learn more and, and to understand more?

[00:07:13] Shane Gross: it's, I mean, yes, I'm reading books I can get my hands on and paying attention to local photographers and all that, but it's really the, to get to the core of it, it's been. Talking with people who have lived here for a long time, whether that's scientists or other photographers or just residents who ha who care they can sort of sum it up and, and get to the heart of it faster, I find, than even a book can because books were published at a certain time and might be kind of out of date or I don't know, but just talking with people has been, I think, the most useful thing for me.

[00:07:52] Shane Gross: You know, there's this conservation collective that, that I've become a part of and, and helped [00:08:00] found here called the Canadian Conservation Photographers Collective. And in there is, are a bunch of great Canadian conservation photographers, . And there's actually quite a high concentration out here in BC and even on Vancouver Island.

[00:08:13] Shane Gross: So having that community and being able to pick their brains. Has been invaluable. And then it, it also has an advantage in terms of just pure, you know, what, what, what is my place here? Because then I see where the gaps are. I see what they're focusing on and shooting, and I don't necessarily need to, to repeat what they're doing, so it leads me to, oh, nobody's really talking about this or shooting this.

[00:08:39] Shane Gross: It, it can lead me in that direction.

[00:08:42] Jaymi Heimbuch: That's really interesting. Okay, so the Canadian Conservation Photographer's Collective I am really excited to talk about this because having, I think community, especially in an area but in general for conservation photographers is, like you said, a huge part of being able to [00:09:00] understand issues better, to be inspired to have leads for or, or access into things.

[00:09:07] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so you said that you helped co-found this, so tell me about what all of this is and how it got started and what some of the work is

[00:09:17] Shane Gross: Yeah, and I mean, so I, I, I call myself a co-founder and I am, but that's basically because I was a part of it from before it was public and there was, there was a group of, about, you know, 15 of us who, who were. Instrumental in, in founding it and shaping what it, what it is today.

[00:09:37] Shane Gross: But most of the credit goes to, you know, three. And even, even one, one person, Josh Dell here, he's sort of our, our leader. He, he's based here on Vancouver Island as well, and it's his sort of brainchild. I helped to shape it a little bit, as did the other co-founders, but I want to give, you know, him, him full credit for, for sort of spearheading this thing.

[00:09:59] Shane Gross: We're, we're trying [00:10:00] to take what is generally a solo act of, you know, I'm a freelance marine conservation photojournalist, and that that can be a very lonely island to sit on. It, everything is up to me, right?

[00:10:13] Shane Gross: So now having that community, like you said, is I think incredibly valuable. I think we're stronger together. You know, if, if there's an issue that pops up and it needs immediate attention, as you know, it can take a lot of time to go out and shoot everything that's needed for that campaign. But I might have one image and this photographer over here might have another two, and this one over here might have three.

[00:10:37] Shane Gross: And we can put together something that is stronger than if it were any one of us trying to do it alone. And I think the timeliness of that is really helpful when it comes down to like, okay, this is happening right now and we need to act on it because it's, you know, there's some sort of a policy change that's being voted on or it needs immediate action.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Shane Gross: But that's just one aspect of it. There's also the fact that we can. Approach publications or conservation organizations and assist them how they might want. So we're still pretty new and still finding our footing, but already we've got conservation organizations approaching us and, you know, we're making plans to go and actually shoot some assignments for them.

[00:11:27] Shane Gross: And hopefully it'll just keep growing and getting bigger and more impactful.

[00:11:32] Jaymi Heimbuch: Yeah. Well, I definitely hope so. Yeah, so what I'm really interested in is that you do these conservation partnerships as a collective. And so you mentioned, you know, you're, you're already shooting some work for organizations. Also on the site, you've got Pacific Wild, which is an organization I love, you've got the Vancouver Humane Society.

[00:11:52] Jaymi Heimbuch: So what are some of the attributes, I guess, that you look for in an organization that the collective would like to [00:12:00] partner with to be able to start to tell their stories?

[00:12:02] Shane Gross: Uh, Basically anybody who will take us No, it's, it's really, I mean, it, it's not that hard to sniff out the, the organizations that are that don't align with our values and those that do. And if, if our values align and there's some benefit mutual benefits going both ways. It, it, it's kind of a no-brainer.

[00:12:27] Shane Gross: And so far we haven't had to deal with any, you know, organizations that we don't see eye to eye with. I mean, is there any organization in the world where I absolutely agree with absolutely everything that they've ever done? No. Is there any individual on the planet ? I agree on absolutely everything with them.

[00:12:45] Shane Gross: Probably not. But if we take a step back and, and, you know, do, do our general goals and values aligned, then I think there's potential for a, a fruitful partnership there.

[00:12:57] Jaymi Heimbuch: I'd love to transition the [00:13:00] conversation a little bit toward the photography side of that work, which is cuz you partner with organizations to help tell stories, important stories of impact or action or the stories of their mission and what they're trying to do. What is a photo story to you?

[00:13:16] Shane Gross: A photo story is. . I like to think of it kind of like a movie because people go to a lot of movies. We understand movies, we understand the language of cinema, I think better than we do the language of photo storytelling. So a movie should have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and the end ends with a climax.

[00:13:42] Shane Gross: It's got generally this three act structure and it shouldn't repeat itself over and over. So if we translate that into a photo story, we don't want 15 pictures of 15 portraits of the same fish. That would be very [00:14:00] uninteresting. How? How, you know, how do we tell the story across however many photos it makes sense for?

[00:14:05] Shane Gross: Like I spent a good chunk of time about three years focusing on a Seagrass story. So I sat down with a piece of paper and I said, okay, if I wanted to do a big story about seagrass, , how do I break it down into interesting images that tell that each frame tells a different part of the story and together they can work together to, to give us a nice big picture that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

[00:14:32] Shane Gross: And, you know, so I broke it down into three parts. What is seagrass and why is it important? What are the threats facing seagrass? And number three, what are some of the potential solutions to the destroying That's, that, that was my three part structure. So yeah, what was your question? What is a photo story?

[00:14:51] Shane Gross: To me, it's . It's a way to, to, to tell a story through visuals. That has an impact. I, I don't, I don't know how [00:15:00] else to say it. It's a very, oh man. We could talk the whole hour about that

[00:15:05] Jaymi Heimbuch: I know, right? It's good stuff. , I really loved that you started to break it down into something that we can think about as if we were to look at a movie or a television show. What is the structure that that takes? I think a lot of times it can be difficult to think about how you're gonna actually convey a story through still frames.

[00:15:24] Jaymi Heimbuch: And also it's also really difficult to figure out how am I. a story about an issue or a topic. So you go from this whole idea of, Hey, there's this issue out there that's really important. How do I create a story about that that draws people in? And that we're not just talking at the 30,000 foot level, but we're really diving in to here's what's going on at a granular level with characters that we can get stoked on and support and wanna throw our energy behind and, you know, get involved in.

[00:15:54] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so I feel like there's a lot inside of conservation, visual storytelling [00:16:00] that is different or unique than your average storytelling in that we do. Wanna use stories in a way that actually has some sort of an impact. Does that ever factor in for you as a conservation photographer, like what that outcome would be?

[00:16:16] Jaymi Heimbuch: Or are you kind of jumping into an idea thinking, I just really wanna tell this story well, and then the outcome is the outcome? Or is there a whole different way that you approach that

[00:16:27] Shane Gross: It, it, I've, I've definitely dove in or jumped in in, in both ways. Sometimes I've gotten into a story and I don't know what the outcome will be. You know, I just know that it's, that it's important, but where it's going to lead to, I'm not, I'm not sure yet. Other ones, you know, there, there's a very obvious or even dictated outcome that we're looking for.

[00:16:54] Shane Gross: For example Wild Aid in the Nature Conservancy hired me for a week long [00:17:00] assignment in The Bahamas to tell the story about how they are stepping up their efforts to cut down on foreign poaching. And they wanted, they had these specific outcomes outlined already. And so that was, you know, fairly obvious and, and easy, and it was clear.

[00:17:17] Shane Gross: Still images were probably not gonna be enough for that. So I convinced them to hire on a videographer, and me and the videographer went down and she did a, a short documentary and I did a photo story. And together that package hopefully was important and for Wild Aid and helpful for, for wild aid to continue their mission.

[00:17:40] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm. . Got it.

[00:17:42] Shane Gross: The Seagrass story, I didn't know exactly what the outcomes would be when I stepped into it.

[00:17:48] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm. . Nice. Yeah, it, it is interesting the variety of storytelling approaches that need to be taken, I guess, compared to the issues that we tackle. Do you have any [00:18:00] particular issues that are really near and dear to your heart as a conservation photographer? Like something that, oh man. If this were the one thing that I had to work on for the rest of my career, it'd be.

[00:18:09] Shane Gross: I think growing up obsessed with sharks, sharks are sort of my, they're my first love and I'm still obsessed with them. So, you know, the bigger story I think has kind of been done and done really well by other photographers. So I haven't tackled the shark fitting issue head on. But there's so many, I mean, there's over 500 species of sharks each with their own story and all these different habitats and places in the world and marine protected areas.

[00:18:41] Shane Gross: And so within, within that world of sharks, there's infinite stories to tell. So yeah, if I were to take on one big, you know, one sort of umbrella issue, it would probably be sharks. Although I've kind of grown obsessed with like octopus. And once you start drilling down, it's like, [00:19:00] there, there's so many interesting, amazing, important things to talk about.

[00:19:04] Shane Gross: But yeah, sharks are, are near and dear to my heart. Yeah.

[00:19:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: So are you concentrating on any shark species in particular where you're at in Vancouver, BC

[00:19:14] Shane Gross: It's very difficult here because, well, there are a lot of shark species that come in and out. Finding any of them reliably is extremely difficult. I've only seen one species of shark in the last three years here, and it was only on two dives. The type of spiny dogfish, which is a terrible name because they are a shark is fairly reliable at, at one or two dive sites at a certain time of year here.

[00:19:42] Shane Gross: But telling a complete story about them, I don't, I don't know what the what the hook is yet or what the narrative would be about them. They are declining, we think though nobody's really studying them. That's another, that's another thing is, you know, I really [00:20:00] depend on the science. If, if there's nobody studying, so.

[00:20:04] Shane Gross: I don't really know where to start on how to tell that story. And really there's nobody studying spiny Dogfish as far as I know. Or maybe I'm missing something or I just haven't found them yet. Same with the Sigi shark, which is a much bigger, much more charismatic shark. They used to be reliably found in the waters here, but people have just very rarely seen them over the last few years.

[00:20:28] Shane Gross: You know, one sighting here, one siding there. But for me to say, okay, I want to go and photograph this species, good luck. It, it, it might take a lot of years or maybe there'll be some discovery of a new site where they frequent, but they're a deep water shark that rarely comes into shallow water. And again, the sort of word on the street is that their populations are declining, but I don't know anybody who's really scientifically looking into them.

[00:20:53] Shane Gross: And that, that, again, as that challenge of where do I even begin if there's no scientist looking into it,[00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: Right, right. And I mean, it's a challenge for all nature photographers, particularly wildlife photographers to know, okay, well where do I need to be when to actually photograph this species? Terrestrial photographers have the benefit of like setting out a camera trap and using track and sign and thinking, okay, well there's enough evidence of something going through in this way.

[00:21:19] Jaymi Heimbuch: I can leave the camera out. We're good to go. What are some of the very unique challenges that you as an underwater photographer face in this.

[00:21:28] Shane Gross: Yeah. It's, I mean, as you alluded to, time is sort of the biggest factor for me in terms of success or failure on a, on a story or a photograph or a project. The more time you spend, the better the photos are going to be, almost without exception. And underwater, we don't have that much time. If you're scuba diving, the average scuba dive is only about an hour.

[00:21:53] Shane Gross: and then you have to surface or you are going to die. Like it's not like, ah, I'll take a few more minutes here. No, you could, [00:22:00] you could run out of breathing gas. Different gases build up in your body while you're underwater and you have to surface and you have to spend a certain amount of time on the surface off gassing.

[00:22:09] Shane Gross: So time is the biggest one. Expense is another big one. Everything is just more expensive. You have to take your nice fancy DSLR mirrorless or whatever you're shooting and then put it in an underwater housing which is just as expensive probably as the camera and lands. And then you need different ports.

[00:22:25] Shane Gross: You need to bring down light because water takes all the. Warm colors out of the color spectrum. So you're just seeing blue or green and it would be very monochrome and, and boring. So to bring those colors back, you need powerful flashes that are underwater, safe and all that. Then you need all the scuba equipment.

[00:22:46] Shane Gross: And if you're in cold water, you need a, a dry suit, which is very expensive. You need scuba tanks, bcs, regulators, mask, fence. It's like going into outer space, going underwater. You can't just walk outta your door and go shoot. If you're snorkeling, you're limited [00:23:00] to where you can hold your breath, and that's all the time you have.

[00:23:02] Shane Gross: But you can be physically in the water for much longer. So, so some of my most successful images worse taken snorkeling and people are always like, oh, do you prefer scuba diving or snorkeling? I'm like, they're both equal tools depending on what you're shooting. There were some nights in The Bahamas where I would go in at sunset and stay until sunrise, so I'd be in there six, eight hours straight.

[00:23:26] Shane Gross: That. Having that time was just absolutely incredible. Of course, then you only have so much battery life and, and blah, blah, blah. So you have to be selective. So yeah, time is a big one. Expense is a big one. And then you need to be really close to the subject. You can't, long lenses are useless underwater because visibility is only so far and the, the light from your strobes only travels so far.

[00:23:54] Shane Gross: So really, most subjects you need to be within feet [00:24:00] or inches. They're okay. Maybe a whale shark can really clear water. You can get a, a cool shot from 10 or 20 feet away. But even a whale shark, I'd want to be within about six feet of, even though they're these massive. 20 to 40 foot long animals, you need to be really close.

[00:24:17] Shane Gross: And that is perhaps the biggest challenge to underwater wildlife photography usually is just getting close to your subjects cuz they're shy, they're really scared of people, including most shark species. I just shot an assignment in the say shells for the Save Seas Foundation and the sharks were incredibly shy.

[00:24:37] Shane Gross: They're wild sharks. That's why if you go to a place where sharks are fed regularly they've overcome their shyness, you can get close. You might be able to get photos. If the sharks are truly wild, then they're gonna see you and bolt off if you're even lucky enough to see them. That is a lot of shark species we know are there cuz [00:25:00] fishermen catch them.

[00:25:01] Shane Gross: Scuba divers never see them because the shark is long gone before we ever even get to see them. and some of those shy or shark species or any shy species in the water, there's very, very few photos of,

[00:25:15] Jaymi Heimbuch: Interesting. Yeah. It's not as if you get to just plop down and sit in a hide and wait for them to, to show up. It's such a incredibly different scenario. You mentioned something really interesting, which is if you go, if the, there's sharks who are truly wild. They're not habituated anyway, but there are places where sharks are fed.

[00:25:33] Jaymi Heimbuch: Um, This is unfamiliar territory for me, so what is that?

[00:25:37] Shane Gross: Well, I find it really, really an interesting topic to discuss, and it is somewhat controversial, the, the practice of feeding sharks. But it's, it's sort of the opposite end of the spectrum to most of animal feeding on land. We all know, you know, a fed bear is a dead bear. You don't feed certain wild animals.

[00:25:58] Shane Gross: On land [00:26:00] underwater, it's almost the opposite. So, for example, in The Bahamas shark feeding led to The Bahamas declaring their waters a shark sanctuary in 2011. These fed sharks know what humans are and they know that we are not food, so they are actually less likely to bite somebody. There's still a lot more studies that need to be done on this.

[00:26:27] Shane Gross: It's a, it's extraordinarily difficult to study that aspect. But that's so far what the early findings are. But that's just the small, a small aspect of it. A bigger aspect of it is these sharks that are being fed, draw in tourists from around the world. They did a study in the Baha. Five or so years ago that said, sharks bring in 118 million a year to the Bahamian economy.

[00:26:52] Shane Gross: That is why The Bahamas protected sharks. It wasn't none of the goodness of their hearts. It wasn't because they [00:27:00] recognized how important sharks are to the ecosystem, although that is a side benefit. They protected them because they were bringing in big money. And so far, the early studies have shown that it, it doesn't have a big negative effect on the sharks.

[00:27:15] Shane Gross: It doesn't change their migration routes. It doesn't, you know, when it's time to ma they do go off and ma they don't stay where the food is. So early studies show that the, the benefits hugely outweigh the draw.

[00:27:29] Jaymi Heimbuch: Interesting. That is definitely a very different narrative than we're used to hearing in terms of never bait you know, never feed wild the animals, all of that. And to hear that it could actually, as so far as studies are actually showing that there are massive, massive benefits to actually creating an ecotourism industry through feeding sharks.

[00:27:51] Shane Gross: Yeah, and it, it's also, just to add just a pile on a little bit more, there's, there's also examples of shark fishermen who see more money in bringing [00:28:00] tourists out to die with sharks. So they actually stop shark fishing and start a tourism business, and they're making more money. It's bringing in livelihoods into some very poor countries.

[00:28:11] Shane Gross: And, you know, the benefits are faring the the costs and it's saved a lot of shark lives. Feeding sharks has saved a lot of sharks lives.

[00:28:21] Jaymi Heimbuch: Wow, that's very inspiring. I was not expecting that at all. . So you mentioned a little while ago that, you know, time is a really big issue. Challenges of location are a really big issue. Expense of underwater photography is a really big issue. You talked a lot about like the, just the sheer equipment that it takes. what does that mean? Or do you see that having an impact for the stories that are being told about our oceans? Because it can be so prohibitive for photographers who really want to be able to contribute to stories, to narratives, but have there be such a big barrier. Are you, do you see anything in that [00:29:00] realm?

[00:29:00] Shane Gross: Yeah, I mean it, the expense, it, of course, it's just a bigger barrier. It's just one more bigger barrier to all of us and. , you know, underwater photos don't sell for more money than a, than a top side photo does. So it just, it adds another layer of financial burden and challenge. So you know how to overcome that.

[00:29:28] Shane Gross: I don't know, other than to say, you know, you can look at grants and stuff. Like for me, I, I come from a very middle class family to buy my first underwater camera set up, I had to go to the bank and lie and say I needed a car loan cuz I didn't think they'd give me a loan for a camera. So that's how I got into it.

[00:29:49] Shane Gross: And then I spent three years, you know, working my ass off to try to pay off that debt and. and then yeah, traveling to a location. And then if you want to get on a boat, that's [00:30:00] expensive. If it's something that's really outside the box, that means you might need to charter a boat, which is just astronomically expensive.

[00:30:07] Shane Gross: So it, it, for me, it basically means I need to be very careful and pick and choose my stories very, very carefully because I just, I can't afford to go out and travel the world and tell every story I want, but that's, everybody has, that has that issue. It's just amplified that much more for underwater photography for people you know, poor nations and, and you know, is conservation photography even on their radar?

[00:30:36] Shane Gross: Probably not. But if it is, I know a lot. Grants are, you know, waiving grant entry fees for people from those countries and trying to bring them in a little bit more, which I think is wonderful. But it is a challenge and I think it, you know, it, it's gonna be a long-term solution. I don't think there's any short-term solutions to that.[00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Shane Gross: It, because it, for me, it started with childhood. Like this was on my radar since childhood. And if it wasn't, I'd probably be sitting in an office somewhere with a suit and tie talking about, you know, mobile apps or I don't know what

[00:31:16] Jaymi Heimbuch: Yeah. That's, it's just really interesting to think about. Y we all have challenges in funding the stories that we wanna fund. It's just hard to get funding for conservation. Storytelling. Conservation always gets the short end of the stick no matter what. And then in addition to that, depending on what you're telling stories about, you might even get the short end of the short stick.

[00:31:35] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so there's so much that we have to put toward just funding the ability to get out there. So the idea that ocean stories. Which the ocean is the majority of the planet . It is the majority of life. It is the, like, how our weather systems work. There's so much involved in it. And to know that it could be that much more challenging to tell the critical stories of it because of the barriers is [00:32:00] really interesting.

[00:32:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: I'm so curious now if there's a study that's been done about I don't know, like ratios of stories or like the impact that we need to have versus we do have because of, you know, visual storytelling that can be done or not. I don't know. I'm going into weird places, but I do

[00:32:16] Shane Gross: be really interesting.

[00:32:16] Jaymi Heimbuch: I think it'd be fascinating.

[00:32:18] Jaymi Heimbuch: But I do wanna say that you have another whole topic that we could do entire multiple episodes on, which has to do with your funding, and that is your Patreon membership where people can actually support you and your work. But in addition to that, end up. Getting mentored by you end up actually being involved in what it is that you do and hearing so much more about what you do, getting behind the scenes stuff.

[00:32:44] Jaymi Heimbuch: Can we talk about your Patreon membership?

[00:32:48] Shane Gross: Yes. Yeah, Patreon, I had, I actually had somebody come to me and say, you know, Shane, I love what you're doing. How can I, how can I [00:33:00] support you? And I didn't know quite what they meant at first and, you know, drill down. And they said, well, if there was a way I could just give you, you know, I can't afford that much, but I, I really like what you're doing in here.

[00:33:09] Shane Gross: Buy some prints. Or I could, you know, even do a monthly donation or whatnot. And, and I was like, oh, wow, that's, A that's amazingly generous and nice and, and, you know, warmed my heart and all that. And then, so I started looking at, at, at how to do that. And I didn't want to handle their credit card and, you know, all that stuff.

[00:33:27] Shane Gross: So I looked for platforms and Patreons seemed to be sort of the leader in the space. And, and I liked some of their benefits and I like that you could have different tiers. So if somebody only wants to only can afford $5 a month, that's great. If, if they can afford $500 a month, I don't have any of those people yet.

[00:33:46] Shane Gross: But if they're out there and they're listening go to my Patreon page then they can do that. And you know, when I was thinking about the different tiers and what sort of benefits or perks, you know, I, I wanted, I wanted to give, I thought, oh, maybe there [00:34:00] would be a photographer out there who could use somebody to talk to as, as sort of a mentor figure.

[00:34:07] Shane Gross: And, you know, , we would just talk on the phone or do portfolio reviews or go over, you know, contest entry images or talk about the story that they're working on or whatever they wanted regularly. So I created a tier for that, and it's 50. I, I put it at, at 50 a month, and it's turned out to be my most popular tier.

[00:34:28] Shane Gross: And it's, and, and I'm, I'm really, you know, surprised at how many people are eager for that. And I mean, you obviously are the, I, I would say the, the premier conservation photography training person in the world. And I absolutely love, love, love, love what you're doing. And I think it's amazing. And it's, it's far beyond what I can provide.

[00:34:52] Shane Gross: But for me, one thing that helped more than anything else in my journey [00:35:00] was a one hour portfolio review with one of my favorite photographers, Tom Pache. . I somehow, you know, convinced him to give me an hour of his time and go over some of my photos, and he was so a brutally honest, but he also defined my style and he gave me a direction without, without, to him, it, it seemed so simple and easy.

[00:35:26] Shane Gross: Oh, he is like, oh, your style is photojournalism and here's what you should do. And it was just like, mind blowing. And it absolutely changed the direction that I was going in. And so I just wanted more of that and more of that. And so, you know, you go to the Photo Society's webpage and there's, you know, these amazing National Geographic photographers who you can pay to have a portfolio review with.

[00:35:48] Shane Gross: So I did a bunch of that and, and then, you know, I thought, well, okay, I'm not at their level, but maybe there is something I can offer to, to beginners. [00:36:00] And So I put the tier out there and know, I've got, I've got a number of men of mentees or proteges or, I don't know what the right word is, but we try our best.

[00:36:09] Shane Gross: I mean, schedules are tough, but we try to, to get on the phone or on a zoom call or whatever, once a month and just talk about what I'm doing, talk about what they're doing, throw ideas around, and I hope that they find a, they find it beneficial and they can cancel at any time and they haven't canceled.

[00:36:27] Shane Gross: So I assume that they find it beneficial. And it's, it's been highly rewarding for me too. I mean, some of them are actually, they're all really good photographers and, you know, some of their ideas are incredible and in some cases they've, they've really helped me out. Actually one of them is your is one a student of yours, Jules Jacobs

[00:36:49] Jaymi Heimbuch: Jules,

[00:36:50] Shane Gross: the podcast.

[00:36:51] Shane Gross: He's, he's, he's amazing. And you know, it's, it's a joy to, to get to chat with him and, and all of them, you know, once a month or whenever we can. [00:37:00] So it's, it's been amazing and I'm, and I'm really excited about it and I appreciate you bringing it up. And there's any young conservation photographers out there who think that they could benefit from that.

[00:37:11] Shane Gross: Head over to patreon.com/shane. Gross

[00:37:15] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Okay, so you said so many things. I, I'm gonna like, reiterate a few things that I think are really, really important. Okay. First of all, I'm gonna start with for anyone who doesn't know what Patreon is, I just wanna quickly outline that. So, Patreon is a platform that allows creators to create essentially a membership, and you can become a member at these different tier levels.

[00:37:37] Jaymi Heimbuch: So, Shane, you've got $5 a month, $10 a month, $20 a month, $50 a month, or 500 a month. And there's different benefits that come with being a member at different tier levels. So a lot of people use this the Ologies podcast uses Patreon so you can, you know, subscribe for a dollar a month to support the podcast or, you know, you get special episodes or whatever it may be.

[00:37:58] Jaymi Heimbuch: There's like lots of people take [00:38:00] advantage of this. And so I think it's a really brilliant use not only for creatives and photographers to be able to find support for their work while offering different levels of benefits to their supporters. That makes sense for them. But it's a great way to fundraise for a project.

[00:38:17] Jaymi Heimbuch: Urban Coyote Initiative, which is a project Iran, for a while we had a Patreon membership as well and a different tier level benefits. And it was incredible to get that level of financial support from people who wanted to help us in our work and have it be this regular, consistent thing. So for anyone listening, if you weren't sure what Patreon is, that's what it is.

[00:38:35] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so you as a supporter can go and find artists, creatives, whatever it is, and support their work and get cool goodies, but you as a creative could also set up your own Patreon and offer something like this. Second thing that you said that I think is I like, we have to spend time on this, the importance of. When you're starting out, when you're a pro, when you're massively advanced, it doesn't matter where the incredible importance of going [00:39:00] to other people and saying, here's my work. What do you think? I would just love for your honest opinion about what's going on. Portfolio reviews are one of the most insanely valuable things that you could ever invest money in at any point in time, but you go even farther with that in terms of an ongoing mentorship, $50 a month.

[00:39:19] Jaymi Heimbuch: So for anyone who's listening right now, $50 a month is an incredibly low cost. To be able to get mentorship from someone, the ongoing conversations. It is such, no wonder you have people who are signing up for this and not leaving who are constantly renewing because the idea of being able to sit down with you and just be like, Shane, here's what I've photographed in the past month.

[00:39:42] Jaymi Heimbuch: Like, what do you think? Or Shane, here's a couple of hiccups that I'm coming up against in my storytelling, in my career. What do you think? And you've got so much experience behind you that you can lend. I like what a beautiful opportunity that you've created for so many photographers. So [00:40:00] thank you so much for setting this up and for offering it at something that is sustainable for people.

[00:40:05] Jaymi Heimbuch: Like the idea of $50 a month might sound like a lot, but my goodness, when you're trying to move forward in your photography career, this is such an affordable investment. That's amazing. Okay, so that's the other thing, that I wanted to say was just like, oh my God. Yes. And then the other thing that I was gonna mention was, for when you were setting up this membership and deciding the different tier levels what was going through your head for what the benefits would be and what is it like for you as a, as a single individual person running this to be able to fulfill those benefits?

[00:40:40] Shane Gross: Well, some of, some of the benefits are fulfilled by Patreon themselves, and so that was nice. That was, you know, a burden off my back and, and, you know, freed up some of my time. But really, I wanted, I wanted to give value, you know I, I don't take people donating money to me lately. I mean, that's, that's an amazing [00:41:00] thing.

[00:41:00] Shane Gross: And so I said, okay, well what can I give that, that might be of value to somebody? So prints, for example um, certain tiers, if, if you sign up and stick with it for at least three months, you get a print of your choice, you know, almost any size. And so it, it, that's actually cheaper than just going to my website and buying a print off my website.

[00:41:20] Shane Gross: So yeah, it was just, it was really thinking about, okay, what, what, what value can I, can I give to these very nice, generous people? That was it. Very simple.

[00:41:31] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Nice. I like it. And I'm curious, one more thing, because I think when we're, especially if someone's interested in creating something like this, I think it's really easy to kind of haul off and say, okay, but I can offer this and then I'll offer this, and then I get really excited by that. But you really do have to think about fulfillment and also roi.

[00:41:50] Jaymi Heimbuch: The whole idea of like, okay, so folks are paying to support me. I don't wanna use all of that on the bene. Like I don't want it to go right back out the door in terms. Prints or [00:42:00] cards or, you know, postcards or this or that. And so I think it's really important to think about, okay, if you wanna set something like this up, that's why the, the idea of creating these one-on-one calls with people, I think is so smart because it's often what we crave the most.

[00:42:15] Jaymi Heimbuch: And other than time, it doesn't cost you anything to actually fulfill this benefit. which actually makes me think of another question. One of the things that I'm curious about is as you're talking, because I know as a teacher or an instructor of conservation photography, I learn every day from my students who are bringing in different ideas or perspectives or problems that we have to overcome together and learning different strategies and techniques and so much.

[00:42:41] Jaymi Heimbuch: So I'm curious if you've been learning along the way as you talk with the folks who are in the tier, or what has that experience been like for you as a mentor to be offering this and to kind of have this open up as like a realm that you're in as a photographer?

[00:42:57] Shane Gross: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's [00:43:00] absolutely been incredibly illuminating which makes me feel guilty sometimes that, that they're paying for this , but I'm getting so much outta it. Um, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is, you know, The the mentees are, are all over the world. So I'm getting like a local's look at the issues in their area, issues that I would have no exposure to, no idea about if, if I wasn't talking to them.

[00:43:28] Shane Gross: So that's the first thing. And I, and I'm very sort of ocean focused and, and in that realm, but a lot of my mentees aren't. So I'm also getting a peek at what it's like to do jungle photography or desert photography or, or some of the things that they're into that I've never experienced. I don't know what specialized equipment they need.

[00:43:50] Shane Gross: And so I'm absorbing all that, which will eventually or already is beneficial to me and my, my photography and my [00:44:00] goals personally. But it's also, leading to what I, what I think are genuine friendships. And if they were to. Stop with the Patreon thing, I think we would still be friends and I think we would talk, and I think we'd want to maybe collaborate someday on, on stories.

[00:44:16] Shane Gross: And it's just, it's just been wonderful. I mean, you, you can see people on social media and respect their work and blah, blah, blah, but, but actually sitting down and having a conversation with them, it's just so much better and different and, and more rich, so many ways.

[00:44:33] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Oh, that's awesome. What do you like as a mentor?

[00:44:36] Shane Gross: I try to preface by saying, I'm, I'm not the be all and end all in this, and what you're getting is my opinion and you know, this is how I do it, but that might not necessarily be the best way, but here's one way.

[00:44:53] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:54] Shane Gross: And so it's, it's really a, a conversation and I, and I also try to [00:45:00] just tell them my experience so that they can sponge in.

[00:45:05] Shane Gross: Experience as well and learn from it. Cuz I've made a lot of mistakes out there and they can learn from those and they can learn from my successes. And then I want to hear about what they're doing and, and hopefully try to just sort of put some ideas in their head or, or help them to look at an issue a different way or I'm very understanding, but also if something isn't good enough, I'll tell them.

[00:45:30] Shane Gross: And I think that honesty is super important. Again, going back to that conversation with Tom Peche in, in 2014. I mean, he was brutal, but I loved it. Like I really, really. I, I can remember it better than I can remember. You know, what I did yesterday, this conversation. And he, you know, and he would say things like, what were you thinking?

[00:45:54] Shane Gross: And, and don't ever show this photo to anybody ever again. And I found it [00:46:00] absolutely hilarious. And sometimes when I tell that story, people are like, oh, he's mean. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That is the biggest gift that he could have given me, is just brutal honesty. And so while I tend to word it more delicately than he does I try to, I try to be that honest as well, because, you know, , he posts something on social media and there's no dislike button.

[00:46:22] Shane Gross: You know, you can only like it and, and generally, like I, I don't want to be a negative person on, on Instagram or something and tell them that their picture sucks. That, I don't know, that feels distasteful, but if it's a one-on-one conversation and the photo isn't good enough where the story isn't, isn't good enough, or here's how they, and, and more importantly how they can improve, instead of just saying, no, it's not good enough.

[00:46:46] Shane Gross: Have you thought of this? Or maybe try this next time. Or look at these 30 other photographers who have better photos of that, and maybe you can get some ideas there. It's, it's, it's about, you know, trying [00:47:00] to help them get to the next, the next level.

[00:47:03] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Okay, so patreon.com/shane gross. I'm gonna put the link in the show notes as well. I think that this is such an incredible opportunity and of course, like if, even if folks don't have $50 a month for mentorship, they can still support your work for $5 a month, $10 a month, whatever it may be to be able to help out.

[00:47:23] Jaymi Heimbuch: And I think that's such an insane opportunity. Mentorship sitting down with people. It is the best investment you can make ever. So yeah, I'm super stoked that this is, this is part of what you do. Now. There's something else that you have done that is out there in the world that I really wanna talk about, which is your Bahamas underwater book.

[00:47:43] Jaymi Heimbuch: So do you mind if we spend some time, I know that we're nearing the hour mark, and I like to be really respectful of people's times. Try and cap it around an hour. But I really wanna talk about your book. Do you mind if we dive in?

[00:47:55] Shane Gross: No, I love talking about my book. Are you kidding?

[00:47:57] Jaymi Heimbuch: Excellent. Awesome. Okay. So Bahamas [00:48:00] underwater. What was the impetus for the book? What was the creation process like? What has it been like since it's been out? How do you promote it? All the things.

[00:48:09] Shane Gross: Well it started, so when I was living in The Bahamas, it was this tiny little island, like 2000 people on it, Harbor Island. And, but it had a little local art gallery, princess Street Art Gallery. And I went in there and I was like, you know, would you want to have some of my prints in your gallery?

[00:48:25] Shane Gross: And they were very kind and said yes. And I got a few in there and, We were building a relationship over years. And then I went in there one day and they said, oh, you know what would be really helpful is if you had a little print book, like just a little, like it could be five by seven or whatever that, you know, cuz we can't carry all your prints all the time.

[00:48:47] Shane Gross: And sometimes they, they sell very rarely, but sometimes they would sell. And so it would be helpful. So I started putting together this a little five by seven book of different print options that somebody could get. And because it was a remote place, we would [00:49:00] ship it directly to their house and blah, blah, blah.

[00:49:02] Shane Gross: Anyway, I started putting that together and it, and it sort of dawned on me that, whoa, maybe there's an actual real book here. Um, And so I started thinking about that and what that would mean and how I could structure it. And I completely abandoned the print book. I never did do one . I still feel bad about that.

[00:49:20] Shane Gross: Um, But I completely dove in, as you would say to This sort of quote unquote real book. And I wanted, you know, wanted it to be simple, but hopefully enjoyable for people. So I split it up into chapters by topic, like chapter one is sharks and rays. Chapter two is marine mammals. And then we get into coral wreaths.

[00:49:42] Shane Gross: And then of course, I wanted to get into some of the issues that are, that are facing The Bahamas. So we have an invasive species of fish, lion fish that are super destructive. So I did a chapter on that. A chapter on Nassau grouper, which were moved to the critically endangered list, yet are still heavily fished.

[00:49:59] Shane Gross: They're on every [00:50:00] menu in The Bahamas. Plastic pollution, climate change in ocean, ocean acidification. So I wanted, I wanted it to be a fun book that people would enjoy, but still, you know, doesn't ignore the issues. So I put this book together and, and Looked at the expense of like, okay, am I gonna print this myself?

[00:50:20] Shane Gross: Do I take it to a publisher? What do I do? And it was such a niche book because it's about this little country with 300,000 people that no publishers really wanted to touch it. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll, I'll just get it printed myself. And I looked at the expense of printing and was like, well, I can't afford that, which is, which ended up being a great thing because I reached out to a friend who is the executive director of a an NGO called Brief, The Bahamas Reef Environmental and Educational Foundation, told her about the idea and she loved it.

[00:50:55] Shane Gross: And she said, well, I think I can raise the money for the printing. [00:51:00] And we basically, we did a back and forth of how it could benefit them and how it could benefit me. They went ahead and raised the money. Rolex was the main sponsor, although there was many individuals and, and, and people who, who sponsored the, the printing of the books.

[00:51:15] Shane Gross: So it didn't cost brief anything, which was great. And then I basically, from that printing, they got a bunch of books that they can then go ahead and, and sell and they keep that money. And in our agreement, I, I said, I basically trust you and I do, they're really small, but really powerful organization.

[00:51:38] Shane Gross: And they're audited and they're a non-profit. So I was like, the, there's not gonna be like embezzlement or something, which you do have to watch out for in, in, in The Bahamas, especially with, with the government. But anyway, not to get off on that. I was really a big fan of their kids' sea camps. So this might be a slightly dated statistic, but just, [00:52:00] you know, a few years ago, the statistic was that 80% of Bahamians never learned how to swim.

[00:52:07] Shane Gross: And they're in this ocean nation, all this beauty around them, 80% don't know how to swim. And I, and, and I looked at what brief was doing with their kids sea camps, taking school children into the ocean, under the supervision of marine biologists, telling them about the ocean, about conservation. I just thought that, that that was a way to have a long-term conservation impact.

[00:52:34] Shane Gross: It, it, it can be very, you know, oh, I got this many clicks or this many likes, or, you know, h how do you, how do you actually make real conservation change? How do you actually push that needle? And I thought that would be a way to, that I could contribute and make a real positive long. Change. And so they are selling the book and they're taking that money and it's going directly to, to teaching kids about [00:53:00] the ocean in The Bahamas.

[00:53:00] Shane Gross: And so it's just been unbelievably fulfilling and wonderful, and I'm really proud of it. So thank you so much for bringing it up.

[00:53:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: Oh my gosh, that's a even better story than I could have hoped for in terms of book creation and why it exists in the world and what it's doing for the world. It's also an insanely gorgeous book. I mean, the images that are in this are beautiful.

[00:53:23] Jaymi Heimbuch: And honestly, I think for photographers, not only would buying this be an investment in a cause that's really important, but it would be an investment in yourself. Because I feel like going through this book and seeing how you've photographed species developed storytelling images how you've broken up the idea of drawing people into something really beautiful and fun and interesting, but also presenting the very real important issues like as a storyteller, this is an item that is a great piece of inspirational research too.

[00:53:54] Jaymi Heimbuch: So again, thank you for putting this out in the world to, for us as a, as a resource [00:54:00] when people go to buy this book. And it's at shane gross.com. , you get a hard copy delivered to your door. Is that right?

[00:54:07] Shane Gross: Correct.

[00:54:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: Do you ever get any updates or information about the C camps as well that you're supporting through

[00:54:13] Shane Gross: Yes. I mean it's, you know, when I, when I came up with the idea of the book and everything, I was still living in The Bahamas. , but I've, I went on on many of these C camps and saw it for myself and spent time with the kids and, and photographed them. And some of the pictures are in the book because of the pandemic and blah, blah.

[00:54:32] Shane Gross: And, and, and another idea that we were hoping to do, and well, okay, I need to back up a little bit. Another stipulation was that I wanted this book to go in every school in The Bahamas, there's only, you know, a about 250 schools in The Bahamas. I was like, okay, 250 books, one at least to every school in The Bahamas.

[00:54:52] Shane Gross: And that we have done, we've, we've fulfilled that covid delayed a little bit cuz the kids weren't in school anyway and blah, blah, blah. Now the books are in the schools. [00:55:00] What I wanted to do was then go around to as many schools as possible and give a presentation and, and then leave them with the book that we haven't done yet.

[00:55:09] Shane Gross: And the kids c camps also got somewhat delayed due to covid, but now they're, they're, they're back and running and so yeah, I would like, I'd love to go back and, and, See them again and do them again and be involved again. Yeah, absolutely. They're, they're just a wonderful thing. The kids have a ball. I mean, they have so much fun.

[00:55:28] Shane Gross: I don't even know if they're learning about , about conservation, but they are, they, they definitely are learning about it, but it's a very fun, subtle way to learn about it and, and hopefully a way that will, that will stick with them. And they're meeting amazing people. I mean, I profile some sea heroes in here.

[00:55:45] Shane Gross: Crystal Ambrose is, is a, a Bahamian woman who started The Bahamas plastic movement that led to The Bahamas banning single use plastics. I mean, just and she goes on, these kids see camps frequently and, you know, I mean, [00:56:00] it, it's an an incredible thing.

[00:56:02] Jaymi Heimbuch: Wow. That makes me so happy. The, like, I, I also think it makes me really happy because hearing what you've done with this book and what your goals were, reminds me, reminds us all about how possible it is. Even with a seemingly small, like this was no small effort. This was a lot of work. I know, but at the same time, like you're thinking 250 schools.

[00:56:26] Jaymi Heimbuch: When you say something like, I want it in every school in The Bahamas, that sounds big and daunting. But then when you actually say the number, oh, 250 schools, oh, that's 250 books. Okay. That feels so doable. So the idea of taking this really audacious goal and saying like, let's say you're, you know, in the US and you're like, I want my book to be in every school in the state.

[00:56:47] Jaymi Heimbuch: Okay, but how many is that? All right. Look how doable that is. Like you can make that happen and think about how many people that could influence. Cause I remember, I can see so vividly the school library when I was in, you [00:57:00] know, third grade and I knew exactly where the books were. The I wanted to go, just like you were talking about, you knew where all the shark books were, I knew where all the horses and dinosaur books were.

[00:57:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: And I still remember how much fun it was whenever our classroom would get. Once a week. We get our chance as a classroom to walk over, go through the library. You pick out two books, like your book is now. In a situation like that, helping people, how inspiring it is to think as a conservation photographer, not only might you be thinking about working with nonprofits or getting your, you know, photo stories and publications, whatever it is, think about how influential you can be by taking your very favorite topics, creating a book and getting that into schools that is just so, and, and in a big way, like in a way that could influence thousands and thousands of students who ultimately will see this over, over time in the school library.

[00:57:48] Jaymi Heimbuch: That's so inspiring to me. I just absolutely adore

[00:57:52] Shane Gross: I think it's, I think it's super cool. And when I looked around I was like, there is no book like this. Like there isn't a book about The Bahamas [00:58:00] Ocean World available. And I was like, well, that's crazy. And there was a little bit of a, you know, I was like, man, probably am I a foreigner, a Canadian, the person to do this?

[00:58:10] Shane Gross: But I, I sort of, I try to think of it more as like, as a, as a, as a gift, as as a love letter to The Bahamas. And I, and it's been received very well. I've, I've definitely gotten a lot of emails and, you know, dms and stuff from parents and even kids themselves of, of how much they like the books.

[00:58:28] Shane Gross: So it's been, it's been really nice.

[00:58:30] Jaymi Heimbuch: That makes me so happy. My brain is already going with like, Ooh, could you put a spin on it and get it into, you know, travel bookstores and could you put a spin on it and get it into, you know, like, I'm just trying to think about how far this beautiful piece that you've created could go in

[00:58:47] Shane Gross: I think. Yeah. I think I need to hire you. You can, you can come work on my my things for a bit.

[00:58:54] Jaymi Heimbuch: I've got like all these marketing funnels in mind well, thank you so much for, for this gift to the world [00:59:00] as well. You are just, you're such an inspiration. I've been following your work for a long time, but to actually get to sit down and talk with you is absolutely a joy. So thank you so much for taking time out of your day to talk about everything that you do as an underwater photographer for all the work that you do, inspiring and helping photographers on a daily basis.

[00:59:20] Jaymi Heimbuch: It's a really, really big deal and I'm so grateful that you're a conservation photographer.

[00:59:25] Shane Gross: Well, thank you so much for having me and, and all those very nice things that you said to me back at you times 10. I'm a huge, huge fan and this was such a joy and, and we should, we should talk again sometime. We don't have to record it, but I'd love to, to sit down and chat with you, you know, lots more into the.

[00:59:43] Jaymi Heimbuch: Awesome. Well, so for everyone listening, remember we've got shane gross.com to be able to check out all of Shane's work, The Bahamas book, Bahamas Underwater. And there's also patreon.com/shane gross. If you wanna go check out the membership tiers and become a [01:00:00] supporter of his work.

[01:00:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: Shane, thank you so very much and for everyone listening, we'll talk to you again next week.

E 132 - Shane Gross
===

[00:00:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: Welcome to this episode of Impact, the Conservation Photography podcast. And today's guest is someone whose photography I've been admiring literally four years.

[00:00:11] Jaymi Heimbuch: I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Shane Gross. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:17] Shane Gross: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Um, It's really an honor.

[00:00:21] Jaymi Heimbuch: I've been following your work for what feels like ever and ever and ever. Cuz you started I think the same year that I picked up a camera. Seriously, in 2009. Is that right?

[00:00:32] Shane Gross: Close. Yeah, that's, that's basically when I picked up a camera too, or, or got more serious about, about this and, and started thinking about it in, in terms of like, maybe there's a potential career or maybe not even a career. It was more like, 2009 was when I invested money I didn't have into camera gear and so I was like, okay, I'm gonna take this seriously.

[00:00:54] Shane Gross: I wanna be a good photographer. So yeah, we start at the same time, I guess,

[00:00:59] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Oh, [00:01:00] that's so awesome. Well, I always start out this podcast with the same question, which is for anyone who hasn't been following your work for years, who is Shane in the world?

[00:01:10] Shane Gross: well, first of all, shame on them Second of all um, who is Shane Gross? I'm a Canadian conservation photographer based on Vancouver Island. I grew up in Regina, Saskatchewan, which is far from the ocean and was a normal kid, but interested in nature. I grew up going to the lake a lot, fishing a lot.

[00:01:36] Shane Gross: I wanted to be closer to fish. I had this kind of obsession with fish. And then as I got older, that grew into an obsession with sharks, even though I'd never seen one in real life. I knew where every book in the library was that had anything to do with sharks. Any presentation where we got to pick our own topic was about sharks.

[00:01:53] Shane Gross: I was a shark nerd. Every piece of clothing I own has sharks on it. Most of it still does. uh, And [00:02:00] then, you know, 2009 came around and I had already, you know, I graduated business school and packed Australia for a year and was starting to think like, oh, maybe the business world isn't where I'm going to feel most fulfilled.

[00:02:13] Shane Gross: So I bought a camera and was like, okay, I'm gonna take this seriously. And I started going on trips to photograph different shark species or other cool, really cool, you know, ocean animals. And it just sort of deepened my love and obsession with the ocean. And then in 2012, I moved to The Bahamas, which was a place that had been close to my heart for a long time.

[00:02:35] Shane Gross: I first got SCUBA certified in The Bahamas. . So I moved to The Bahamas, became a dive instructor, and that's where I really got to feel at home in the ocean. Coming from Saskatchewan, I never, I didn't understand how tides worked, and it was just like still mysterious to me, so I got to spend a lot of time in the water, got really comfortable as a scuba diver, put [00:03:00] in literally thousands and thousands of hours in the water, scouting spots, teaching people, seeing what the potential dangers are, and got really confident in the water and was also practicing photography along the way.

[00:03:13] Shane Gross: And as I got better as a photographer, I started to see the potential impact of my photos for local conservation there in The Bahamas. Fast forward a bit, covid hits, and suddenly I have to leave The Bahamas and come back to Canada. . But I didn't want to go back to Landlock Saskatchewan. So I moved out to the west coast of Vancouver Island and have been here since, you know, sort of the start of Covid, so about three years.

[00:03:44] Shane Gross: So I'm still sort of learning what the issues and everything are here on Vancouver Island, which is on the west coast of Canada. And still sort of have some, irons in the fire in The Bahamas as well. But mostly I'm focusing or trying to focus on local stories here on [00:04:00] Vancouver Island. Hopefully that's not too long of a version.

[00:04:03] Jaymi Heimbuch: I love it. No, that's great. I, I'm so interested because the experience of being an underwater photographer in The Bahamas is so different from being under the water on Vancouver Island or off the coast. And so what has that been like for you as a, as an underwater photographer, changing environments that you're in so dramatically?

[00:04:26] Shane Gross: Well, it's, it's been, it's been ups and downs. On the one hand, I've got all these new cool animals and environments to photograph, and so it's, it's very freeing and it opens up this whole world of cold water diving in The Bahamas. I, I, when I lived there, I'd only dove in warm water. So if I was gonna travel, I only felt confident in going to other warm water destinations here on Vancouver WA Island, it's cold water.

[00:04:54] Shane Gross: I'm in a dry suit. It is a different diving experience. [00:05:00] and a new set of skills. So getting comfortable with that has opened up new destinations. Like this past summer, I, I went to Alaska and went scuba diving, which is something I probably wouldn't have done if I was still living in The Bahamas. The intimidating part is that it's all new animals and environments that I don't understand as well as I understood the ones in The Bahamas, and the conservation landscape here is so much more complex that I'm, I'm treading quite lightly because I don't feel like I understand the issues as well as I need to for tackling some of the stories that are on my doorstep.

[00:05:42] Shane Gross: I'm, I'm slowly picking away at them. I'm going out and shooting here and there but I'm not like super strong opinionated coming out of the gate because there's a lot going on here and there's a lot of history here that I don't fully understand.

[00:05:58] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:58] Shane Gross: So that's the [00:06:00] harder side of it.

[00:06:01] Jaymi Heimbuch: Yeah. I'm gonna return to this question because I was totally thinking more like, so what's visibility like under the water and shooting? But now you're bringing it into a whole nother realm of, of conversation, which I'm really interested in, which is landing in a new place and taking the time to really understand the complexity because I think it, it is so easy and I've watched several people kind of land in a new area and be super fired up and excited and ready to help, ready to make a change.

[00:06:30] Jaymi Heimbuch: Noticing, you know, things that they might take issue with or, or where conservation conversations can happen. It's so critical to take that step back because there is so much history in an area or things that are in the works that might not be as visible and so on. So when you're landing in a new place, taking some time to really start to dig into that is a very big deal because then you're gonna be able to actually shape your stories in a way that have an impact and don't just piss people [00:07:00] off or look very skewed or seem very naive.

[00:07:04] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so when you're diving into all of that what are some of the resources that you're starting to lean on to be able to learn more and, and to understand more?

[00:07:13] Shane Gross: it's, I mean, yes, I'm reading books I can get my hands on and paying attention to local photographers and all that, but it's really the, to get to the core of it, it's been. Talking with people who have lived here for a long time, whether that's scientists or other photographers or just residents who ha who care they can sort of sum it up and, and get to the heart of it faster, I find, than even a book can because books were published at a certain time and might be kind of out of date or I don't know, but just talking with people has been, I think, the most useful thing for me.

[00:07:52] Shane Gross: You know, there's this conservation collective that, that I've become a part of and, and helped [00:08:00] found here called the Canadian Conservation Photographers Collective. And in there is, are a bunch of great Canadian conservation photographers, . And there's actually quite a high concentration out here in BC and even on Vancouver Island.

[00:08:13] Shane Gross: So having that community and being able to pick their brains. Has been invaluable. And then it, it also has an advantage in terms of just pure, you know, what, what, what is my place here? Because then I see where the gaps are. I see what they're focusing on and shooting, and I don't necessarily need to, to repeat what they're doing, so it leads me to, oh, nobody's really talking about this or shooting this.

[00:08:39] Shane Gross: It, it can lead me in that direction.

[00:08:42] Jaymi Heimbuch: That's really interesting. Okay, so the Canadian Conservation Photographer's Collective I am really excited to talk about this because having, I think community, especially in an area but in general for conservation photographers is, like you said, a huge part of being able to [00:09:00] understand issues better, to be inspired to have leads for or, or access into things.

[00:09:07] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so you said that you helped co-found this, so tell me about what all of this is and how it got started and what some of the work is

[00:09:17] Shane Gross: Yeah, and I mean, so I, I, I call myself a co-founder and I am, but that's basically because I was a part of it from before it was public and there was, there was a group of, about, you know, 15 of us who, who were. Instrumental in, in founding it and shaping what it, what it is today.

[00:09:37] Shane Gross: But most of the credit goes to, you know, three. And even, even one, one person, Josh Dell here, he's sort of our, our leader. He, he's based here on Vancouver Island as well, and it's his sort of brainchild. I helped to shape it a little bit, as did the other co-founders, but I want to give, you know, him, him full credit for, for sort of spearheading this thing.

[00:09:59] Shane Gross: We're, we're trying [00:10:00] to take what is generally a solo act of, you know, I'm a freelance marine conservation photojournalist, and that that can be a very lonely island to sit on. It, everything is up to me, right?

[00:10:13] Shane Gross: So now having that community, like you said, is I think incredibly valuable. I think we're stronger together. You know, if, if there's an issue that pops up and it needs immediate attention, as you know, it can take a lot of time to go out and shoot everything that's needed for that campaign. But I might have one image and this photographer over here might have another two, and this one over here might have three.

[00:10:37] Shane Gross: And we can put together something that is stronger than if it were any one of us trying to do it alone. And I think the timeliness of that is really helpful when it comes down to like, okay, this is happening right now and we need to act on it because it's, you know, there's some sort of a policy change that's being voted on or it needs immediate action.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Shane Gross: But that's just one aspect of it. There's also the fact that we can. Approach publications or conservation organizations and assist them how they might want. So we're still pretty new and still finding our footing, but already we've got conservation organizations approaching us and, you know, we're making plans to go and actually shoot some assignments for them.

[00:11:27] Shane Gross: And hopefully it'll just keep growing and getting bigger and more impactful.

[00:11:32] Jaymi Heimbuch: Yeah. Well, I definitely hope so. Yeah, so what I'm really interested in is that you do these conservation partnerships as a collective. And so you mentioned, you know, you're, you're already shooting some work for organizations. Also on the site, you've got Pacific Wild, which is an organization I love, you've got the Vancouver Humane Society.

[00:11:52] Jaymi Heimbuch: So what are some of the attributes, I guess, that you look for in an organization that the collective would like to [00:12:00] partner with to be able to start to tell their stories?

[00:12:02] Shane Gross: Uh, Basically anybody who will take us No, it's, it's really, I mean, it, it's not that hard to sniff out the, the organizations that are that don't align with our values and those that do. And if, if our values align and there's some benefit mutual benefits going both ways. It, it, it's kind of a no-brainer.

[00:12:27] Shane Gross: And so far we haven't had to deal with any, you know, organizations that we don't see eye to eye with. I mean, is there any organization in the world where I absolutely agree with absolutely everything that they've ever done? No. Is there any individual on the planet ? I agree on absolutely everything with them.

[00:12:45] Shane Gross: Probably not. But if we take a step back and, and, you know, do, do our general goals and values aligned, then I think there's potential for a, a fruitful partnership there.

[00:12:57] Jaymi Heimbuch: I'd love to transition the [00:13:00] conversation a little bit toward the photography side of that work, which is cuz you partner with organizations to help tell stories, important stories of impact or action or the stories of their mission and what they're trying to do. What is a photo story to you?

[00:13:16] Shane Gross: A photo story is. . I like to think of it kind of like a movie because people go to a lot of movies. We understand movies, we understand the language of cinema, I think better than we do the language of photo storytelling. So a movie should have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and the end ends with a climax.

[00:13:42] Shane Gross: It's got generally this three act structure and it shouldn't repeat itself over and over. So if we translate that into a photo story, we don't want 15 pictures of 15 portraits of the same fish. That would be very [00:14:00] uninteresting. How? How, you know, how do we tell the story across however many photos it makes sense for?

[00:14:05] Shane Gross: Like I spent a good chunk of time about three years focusing on a Seagrass story. So I sat down with a piece of paper and I said, okay, if I wanted to do a big story about seagrass, , how do I break it down into interesting images that tell that each frame tells a different part of the story and together they can work together to, to give us a nice big picture that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

[00:14:32] Shane Gross: And, you know, so I broke it down into three parts. What is seagrass and why is it important? What are the threats facing seagrass? And number three, what are some of the potential solutions to the destroying That's, that, that was my three part structure. So yeah, what was your question? What is a photo story?

[00:14:51] Shane Gross: To me, it's . It's a way to, to, to tell a story through visuals. That has an impact. I, I don't, I don't know how [00:15:00] else to say it. It's a very, oh man. We could talk the whole hour about that

[00:15:05] Jaymi Heimbuch: I know, right? It's good stuff. , I really loved that you started to break it down into something that we can think about as if we were to look at a movie or a television show. What is the structure that that takes? I think a lot of times it can be difficult to think about how you're gonna actually convey a story through still frames.

[00:15:24] Jaymi Heimbuch: And also it's also really difficult to figure out how am I. a story about an issue or a topic. So you go from this whole idea of, Hey, there's this issue out there that's really important. How do I create a story about that that draws people in? And that we're not just talking at the 30,000 foot level, but we're really diving in to here's what's going on at a granular level with characters that we can get stoked on and support and wanna throw our energy behind and, you know, get involved in.

[00:15:54] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so I feel like there's a lot inside of conservation, visual storytelling [00:16:00] that is different or unique than your average storytelling in that we do. Wanna use stories in a way that actually has some sort of an impact. Does that ever factor in for you as a conservation photographer, like what that outcome would be?

[00:16:16] Jaymi Heimbuch: Or are you kind of jumping into an idea thinking, I just really wanna tell this story well, and then the outcome is the outcome? Or is there a whole different way that you approach that

[00:16:27] Shane Gross: It, it, I've, I've definitely dove in or jumped in in, in both ways. Sometimes I've gotten into a story and I don't know what the outcome will be. You know, I just know that it's, that it's important, but where it's going to lead to, I'm not, I'm not sure yet. Other ones, you know, there, there's a very obvious or even dictated outcome that we're looking for.

[00:16:54] Shane Gross: For example Wild Aid in the Nature Conservancy hired me for a week long [00:17:00] assignment in The Bahamas to tell the story about how they are stepping up their efforts to cut down on foreign poaching. And they wanted, they had these specific outcomes outlined already. And so that was, you know, fairly obvious and, and easy, and it was clear.

[00:17:17] Shane Gross: Still images were probably not gonna be enough for that. So I convinced them to hire on a videographer, and me and the videographer went down and she did a, a short documentary and I did a photo story. And together that package hopefully was important and for Wild Aid and helpful for, for wild aid to continue their mission.

[00:17:40] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm. . Got it.

[00:17:42] Shane Gross: The Seagrass story, I didn't know exactly what the outcomes would be when I stepped into it.

[00:17:48] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm. . Nice. Yeah, it, it is interesting the variety of storytelling approaches that need to be taken, I guess, compared to the issues that we tackle. Do you have any [00:18:00] particular issues that are really near and dear to your heart as a conservation photographer? Like something that, oh man. If this were the one thing that I had to work on for the rest of my career, it'd be.

[00:18:09] Shane Gross: I think growing up obsessed with sharks, sharks are sort of my, they're my first love and I'm still obsessed with them. So, you know, the bigger story I think has kind of been done and done really well by other photographers. So I haven't tackled the shark fitting issue head on. But there's so many, I mean, there's over 500 species of sharks each with their own story and all these different habitats and places in the world and marine protected areas.

[00:18:41] Shane Gross: And so within, within that world of sharks, there's infinite stories to tell. So yeah, if I were to take on one big, you know, one sort of umbrella issue, it would probably be sharks. Although I've kind of grown obsessed with like octopus. And once you start drilling down, it's like, [00:19:00] there, there's so many interesting, amazing, important things to talk about.

[00:19:04] Shane Gross: But yeah, sharks are, are near and dear to my heart. Yeah.

[00:19:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: So are you concentrating on any shark species in particular where you're at in Vancouver, BC

[00:19:14] Shane Gross: It's very difficult here because, well, there are a lot of shark species that come in and out. Finding any of them reliably is extremely difficult. I've only seen one species of shark in the last three years here, and it was only on two dives. The type of spiny dogfish, which is a terrible name because they are a shark is fairly reliable at, at one or two dive sites at a certain time of year here.

[00:19:42] Shane Gross: But telling a complete story about them, I don't, I don't know what the what the hook is yet or what the narrative would be about them. They are declining, we think though nobody's really studying them. That's another, that's another thing is, you know, I really [00:20:00] depend on the science. If, if there's nobody studying, so.

[00:20:04] Shane Gross: I don't really know where to start on how to tell that story. And really there's nobody studying spiny Dogfish as far as I know. Or maybe I'm missing something or I just haven't found them yet. Same with the Sigi shark, which is a much bigger, much more charismatic shark. They used to be reliably found in the waters here, but people have just very rarely seen them over the last few years.

[00:20:28] Shane Gross: You know, one sighting here, one siding there. But for me to say, okay, I want to go and photograph this species, good luck. It, it, it might take a lot of years or maybe there'll be some discovery of a new site where they frequent, but they're a deep water shark that rarely comes into shallow water. And again, the sort of word on the street is that their populations are declining, but I don't know anybody who's really scientifically looking into them.

[00:20:53] Shane Gross: And that, that, again, as that challenge of where do I even begin if there's no scientist looking into it,[00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: Right, right. And I mean, it's a challenge for all nature photographers, particularly wildlife photographers to know, okay, well where do I need to be when to actually photograph this species? Terrestrial photographers have the benefit of like setting out a camera trap and using track and sign and thinking, okay, well there's enough evidence of something going through in this way.

[00:21:19] Jaymi Heimbuch: I can leave the camera out. We're good to go. What are some of the very unique challenges that you as an underwater photographer face in this.

[00:21:28] Shane Gross: Yeah. It's, I mean, as you alluded to, time is sort of the biggest factor for me in terms of success or failure on a, on a story or a photograph or a project. The more time you spend, the better the photos are going to be, almost without exception. And underwater, we don't have that much time. If you're scuba diving, the average scuba dive is only about an hour.

[00:21:53] Shane Gross: and then you have to surface or you are going to die. Like it's not like, ah, I'll take a few more minutes here. No, you could, [00:22:00] you could run out of breathing gas. Different gases build up in your body while you're underwater and you have to surface and you have to spend a certain amount of time on the surface off gassing.

[00:22:09] Shane Gross: So time is the biggest one. Expense is another big one. Everything is just more expensive. You have to take your nice fancy DSLR mirrorless or whatever you're shooting and then put it in an underwater housing which is just as expensive probably as the camera and lands. And then you need different ports.

[00:22:25] Shane Gross: You need to bring down light because water takes all the. Warm colors out of the color spectrum. So you're just seeing blue or green and it would be very monochrome and, and boring. So to bring those colors back, you need powerful flashes that are underwater, safe and all that. Then you need all the scuba equipment.

[00:22:46] Shane Gross: And if you're in cold water, you need a, a dry suit, which is very expensive. You need scuba tanks, bcs, regulators, mask, fence. It's like going into outer space, going underwater. You can't just walk outta your door and go shoot. If you're snorkeling, you're limited [00:23:00] to where you can hold your breath, and that's all the time you have.

[00:23:02] Shane Gross: But you can be physically in the water for much longer. So, so some of my most successful images worse taken snorkeling and people are always like, oh, do you prefer scuba diving or snorkeling? I'm like, they're both equal tools depending on what you're shooting. There were some nights in The Bahamas where I would go in at sunset and stay until sunrise, so I'd be in there six, eight hours straight.

[00:23:26] Shane Gross: That. Having that time was just absolutely incredible. Of course, then you only have so much battery life and, and blah, blah, blah. So you have to be selective. So yeah, time is a big one. Expense is a big one. And then you need to be really close to the subject. You can't, long lenses are useless underwater because visibility is only so far and the, the light from your strobes only travels so far.

[00:23:54] Shane Gross: So really, most subjects you need to be within feet [00:24:00] or inches. They're okay. Maybe a whale shark can really clear water. You can get a, a cool shot from 10 or 20 feet away. But even a whale shark, I'd want to be within about six feet of, even though they're these massive. 20 to 40 foot long animals, you need to be really close.

[00:24:17] Shane Gross: And that is perhaps the biggest challenge to underwater wildlife photography usually is just getting close to your subjects cuz they're shy, they're really scared of people, including most shark species. I just shot an assignment in the say shells for the Save Seas Foundation and the sharks were incredibly shy.

[00:24:37] Shane Gross: They're wild sharks. That's why if you go to a place where sharks are fed regularly they've overcome their shyness, you can get close. You might be able to get photos. If the sharks are truly wild, then they're gonna see you and bolt off if you're even lucky enough to see them. That is a lot of shark species we know are there cuz [00:25:00] fishermen catch them.

[00:25:01] Shane Gross: Scuba divers never see them because the shark is long gone before we ever even get to see them. and some of those shy or shark species or any shy species in the water, there's very, very few photos of,

[00:25:15] Jaymi Heimbuch: Interesting. Yeah. It's not as if you get to just plop down and sit in a hide and wait for them to, to show up. It's such a incredibly different scenario. You mentioned something really interesting, which is if you go, if the, there's sharks who are truly wild. They're not habituated anyway, but there are places where sharks are fed.

[00:25:33] Jaymi Heimbuch: Um, This is unfamiliar territory for me, so what is that?

[00:25:37] Shane Gross: Well, I find it really, really an interesting topic to discuss, and it is somewhat controversial, the, the practice of feeding sharks. But it's, it's sort of the opposite end of the spectrum to most of animal feeding on land. We all know, you know, a fed bear is a dead bear. You don't feed certain wild animals.

[00:25:58] Shane Gross: On land [00:26:00] underwater, it's almost the opposite. So, for example, in The Bahamas shark feeding led to The Bahamas declaring their waters a shark sanctuary in 2011. These fed sharks know what humans are and they know that we are not food, so they are actually less likely to bite somebody. There's still a lot more studies that need to be done on this.

[00:26:27] Shane Gross: It's a, it's extraordinarily difficult to study that aspect. But that's so far what the early findings are. But that's just the small, a small aspect of it. A bigger aspect of it is these sharks that are being fed, draw in tourists from around the world. They did a study in the Baha. Five or so years ago that said, sharks bring in 118 million a year to the Bahamian economy.

[00:26:52] Shane Gross: That is why The Bahamas protected sharks. It wasn't none of the goodness of their hearts. It wasn't because they [00:27:00] recognized how important sharks are to the ecosystem, although that is a side benefit. They protected them because they were bringing in big money. And so far, the early studies have shown that it, it doesn't have a big negative effect on the sharks.

[00:27:15] Shane Gross: It doesn't change their migration routes. It doesn't, you know, when it's time to ma they do go off and ma they don't stay where the food is. So early studies show that the, the benefits hugely outweigh the draw.

[00:27:29] Jaymi Heimbuch: Interesting. That is definitely a very different narrative than we're used to hearing in terms of never bait you know, never feed wild the animals, all of that. And to hear that it could actually, as so far as studies are actually showing that there are massive, massive benefits to actually creating an ecotourism industry through feeding sharks.

[00:27:51] Shane Gross: Yeah, and it, it's also, just to add just a pile on a little bit more, there's, there's also examples of shark fishermen who see more money in bringing [00:28:00] tourists out to die with sharks. So they actually stop shark fishing and start a tourism business, and they're making more money. It's bringing in livelihoods into some very poor countries.

[00:28:11] Shane Gross: And, you know, the benefits are faring the the costs and it's saved a lot of shark lives. Feeding sharks has saved a lot of sharks lives.

[00:28:21] Jaymi Heimbuch: Wow, that's very inspiring. I was not expecting that at all. . So you mentioned a little while ago that, you know, time is a really big issue. Challenges of location are a really big issue. Expense of underwater photography is a really big issue. You talked a lot about like the, just the sheer equipment that it takes. what does that mean? Or do you see that having an impact for the stories that are being told about our oceans? Because it can be so prohibitive for photographers who really want to be able to contribute to stories, to narratives, but have there be such a big barrier. Are you, do you see anything in that [00:29:00] realm?

[00:29:00] Shane Gross: Yeah, I mean it, the expense, it, of course, it's just a bigger barrier. It's just one more bigger barrier to all of us and. , you know, underwater photos don't sell for more money than a, than a top side photo does. So it just, it adds another layer of financial burden and challenge. So you know how to overcome that.

[00:29:28] Shane Gross: I don't know, other than to say, you know, you can look at grants and stuff. Like for me, I, I come from a very middle class family to buy my first underwater camera set up, I had to go to the bank and lie and say I needed a car loan cuz I didn't think they'd give me a loan for a camera. So that's how I got into it.

[00:29:49] Shane Gross: And then I spent three years, you know, working my ass off to try to pay off that debt and. and then yeah, traveling to a location. And then if you want to get on a boat, that's [00:30:00] expensive. If it's something that's really outside the box, that means you might need to charter a boat, which is just astronomically expensive.

[00:30:07] Shane Gross: So it, it, for me, it basically means I need to be very careful and pick and choose my stories very, very carefully because I just, I can't afford to go out and travel the world and tell every story I want, but that's, everybody has, that has that issue. It's just amplified that much more for underwater photography for people you know, poor nations and, and you know, is conservation photography even on their radar?

[00:30:36] Shane Gross: Probably not. But if it is, I know a lot. Grants are, you know, waiving grant entry fees for people from those countries and trying to bring them in a little bit more, which I think is wonderful. But it is a challenge and I think it, you know, it, it's gonna be a long-term solution. I don't think there's any short-term solutions to that.[00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Shane Gross: It, because it, for me, it started with childhood. Like this was on my radar since childhood. And if it wasn't, I'd probably be sitting in an office somewhere with a suit and tie talking about, you know, mobile apps or I don't know what

[00:31:16] Jaymi Heimbuch: Yeah. That's, it's just really interesting to think about. Y we all have challenges in funding the stories that we wanna fund. It's just hard to get funding for conservation. Storytelling. Conservation always gets the short end of the stick no matter what. And then in addition to that, depending on what you're telling stories about, you might even get the short end of the short stick.

[00:31:35] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so there's so much that we have to put toward just funding the ability to get out there. So the idea that ocean stories. Which the ocean is the majority of the planet . It is the majority of life. It is the, like, how our weather systems work. There's so much involved in it. And to know that it could be that much more challenging to tell the critical stories of it because of the barriers is [00:32:00] really interesting.

[00:32:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: I'm so curious now if there's a study that's been done about I don't know, like ratios of stories or like the impact that we need to have versus we do have because of, you know, visual storytelling that can be done or not. I don't know. I'm going into weird places, but I do

[00:32:16] Shane Gross: be really interesting.

[00:32:16] Jaymi Heimbuch: I think it'd be fascinating.

[00:32:18] Jaymi Heimbuch: But I do wanna say that you have another whole topic that we could do entire multiple episodes on, which has to do with your funding, and that is your Patreon membership where people can actually support you and your work. But in addition to that, end up. Getting mentored by you end up actually being involved in what it is that you do and hearing so much more about what you do, getting behind the scenes stuff.

[00:32:44] Jaymi Heimbuch: Can we talk about your Patreon membership?

[00:32:48] Shane Gross: Yes. Yeah, Patreon, I had, I actually had somebody come to me and say, you know, Shane, I love what you're doing. How can I, how can I [00:33:00] support you? And I didn't know quite what they meant at first and, you know, drill down. And they said, well, if there was a way I could just give you, you know, I can't afford that much, but I, I really like what you're doing in here.

[00:33:09] Shane Gross: Buy some prints. Or I could, you know, even do a monthly donation or whatnot. And, and I was like, oh, wow, that's, A that's amazingly generous and nice and, and, you know, warmed my heart and all that. And then, so I started looking at, at, at how to do that. And I didn't want to handle their credit card and, you know, all that stuff.

[00:33:27] Shane Gross: So I looked for platforms and Patreons seemed to be sort of the leader in the space. And, and I liked some of their benefits and I like that you could have different tiers. So if somebody only wants to only can afford $5 a month, that's great. If, if they can afford $500 a month, I don't have any of those people yet.

[00:33:46] Shane Gross: But if they're out there and they're listening go to my Patreon page then they can do that. And you know, when I was thinking about the different tiers and what sort of benefits or perks, you know, I, I wanted, I wanted to give, I thought, oh, maybe there [00:34:00] would be a photographer out there who could use somebody to talk to as, as sort of a mentor figure.

[00:34:07] Shane Gross: And, you know, , we would just talk on the phone or do portfolio reviews or go over, you know, contest entry images or talk about the story that they're working on or whatever they wanted regularly. So I created a tier for that, and it's 50. I, I put it at, at 50 a month, and it's turned out to be my most popular tier.

[00:34:28] Shane Gross: And it's, and, and I'm, I'm really, you know, surprised at how many people are eager for that. And I mean, you obviously are the, I, I would say the, the premier conservation photography training person in the world. And I absolutely love, love, love, love what you're doing. And I think it's amazing. And it's, it's far beyond what I can provide.

[00:34:52] Shane Gross: But for me, one thing that helped more than anything else in my journey [00:35:00] was a one hour portfolio review with one of my favorite photographers, Tom Pache. . I somehow, you know, convinced him to give me an hour of his time and go over some of my photos, and he was so a brutally honest, but he also defined my style and he gave me a direction without, without, to him, it, it seemed so simple and easy.

[00:35:26] Shane Gross: Oh, he is like, oh, your style is photojournalism and here's what you should do. And it was just like, mind blowing. And it absolutely changed the direction that I was going in. And so I just wanted more of that and more of that. And so, you know, you go to the Photo Society's webpage and there's, you know, these amazing National Geographic photographers who you can pay to have a portfolio review with.

[00:35:48] Shane Gross: So I did a bunch of that and, and then, you know, I thought, well, okay, I'm not at their level, but maybe there is something I can offer to, to beginners. [00:36:00] And So I put the tier out there and know, I've got, I've got a number of men of mentees or proteges or, I don't know what the right word is, but we try our best.

[00:36:09] Shane Gross: I mean, schedules are tough, but we try to, to get on the phone or on a zoom call or whatever, once a month and just talk about what I'm doing, talk about what they're doing, throw ideas around, and I hope that they find a, they find it beneficial and they can cancel at any time and they haven't canceled.

[00:36:27] Shane Gross: So I assume that they find it beneficial. And it's, it's been highly rewarding for me too. I mean, some of them are actually, they're all really good photographers and, you know, some of their ideas are incredible and in some cases they've, they've really helped me out. Actually one of them is your is one a student of yours, Jules Jacobs

[00:36:49] Jaymi Heimbuch: Jules,

[00:36:50] Shane Gross: the podcast.

[00:36:51] Shane Gross: He's, he's, he's amazing. And you know, it's, it's a joy to, to get to chat with him and, and all of them, you know, once a month or whenever we can. [00:37:00] So it's, it's been amazing and I'm, and I'm really excited about it and I appreciate you bringing it up. And there's any young conservation photographers out there who think that they could benefit from that.

[00:37:11] Shane Gross: Head over to patreon.com/shane. Gross

[00:37:15] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Okay, so you said so many things. I, I'm gonna like, reiterate a few things that I think are really, really important. Okay. First of all, I'm gonna start with for anyone who doesn't know what Patreon is, I just wanna quickly outline that. So, Patreon is a platform that allows creators to create essentially a membership, and you can become a member at these different tier levels.

[00:37:37] Jaymi Heimbuch: So, Shane, you've got $5 a month, $10 a month, $20 a month, $50 a month, or 500 a month. And there's different benefits that come with being a member at different tier levels. So a lot of people use this the Ologies podcast uses Patreon so you can, you know, subscribe for a dollar a month to support the podcast or, you know, you get special episodes or whatever it may be.

[00:37:58] Jaymi Heimbuch: There's like lots of people take [00:38:00] advantage of this. And so I think it's a really brilliant use not only for creatives and photographers to be able to find support for their work while offering different levels of benefits to their supporters. That makes sense for them. But it's a great way to fundraise for a project.

[00:38:17] Jaymi Heimbuch: Urban Coyote Initiative, which is a project Iran, for a while we had a Patreon membership as well and a different tier level benefits. And it was incredible to get that level of financial support from people who wanted to help us in our work and have it be this regular, consistent thing. So for anyone listening, if you weren't sure what Patreon is, that's what it is.

[00:38:35] Jaymi Heimbuch: And so you as a supporter can go and find artists, creatives, whatever it is, and support their work and get cool goodies, but you as a creative could also set up your own Patreon and offer something like this. Second thing that you said that I think is I like, we have to spend time on this, the importance of. When you're starting out, when you're a pro, when you're massively advanced, it doesn't matter where the incredible importance of going [00:39:00] to other people and saying, here's my work. What do you think? I would just love for your honest opinion about what's going on. Portfolio reviews are one of the most insanely valuable things that you could ever invest money in at any point in time, but you go even farther with that in terms of an ongoing mentorship, $50 a month.

[00:39:19] Jaymi Heimbuch: So for anyone who's listening right now, $50 a month is an incredibly low cost. To be able to get mentorship from someone, the ongoing conversations. It is such, no wonder you have people who are signing up for this and not leaving who are constantly renewing because the idea of being able to sit down with you and just be like, Shane, here's what I've photographed in the past month.

[00:39:42] Jaymi Heimbuch: Like, what do you think? Or Shane, here's a couple of hiccups that I'm coming up against in my storytelling, in my career. What do you think? And you've got so much experience behind you that you can lend. I like what a beautiful opportunity that you've created for so many photographers. So [00:40:00] thank you so much for setting this up and for offering it at something that is sustainable for people.

[00:40:05] Jaymi Heimbuch: Like the idea of $50 a month might sound like a lot, but my goodness, when you're trying to move forward in your photography career, this is such an affordable investment. That's amazing. Okay, so that's the other thing, that I wanted to say was just like, oh my God. Yes. And then the other thing that I was gonna mention was, for when you were setting up this membership and deciding the different tier levels what was going through your head for what the benefits would be and what is it like for you as a, as a single individual person running this to be able to fulfill those benefits?

[00:40:40] Shane Gross: Well, some of, some of the benefits are fulfilled by Patreon themselves, and so that was nice. That was, you know, a burden off my back and, and, you know, freed up some of my time. But really, I wanted, I wanted to give value, you know I, I don't take people donating money to me lately. I mean, that's, that's an amazing [00:41:00] thing.

[00:41:00] Shane Gross: And so I said, okay, well what can I give that, that might be of value to somebody? So prints, for example um, certain tiers, if, if you sign up and stick with it for at least three months, you get a print of your choice, you know, almost any size. And so it, it, that's actually cheaper than just going to my website and buying a print off my website.

[00:41:20] Shane Gross: So yeah, it was just, it was really thinking about, okay, what, what, what value can I, can I give to these very nice, generous people? That was it. Very simple.

[00:41:31] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Nice. I like it. And I'm curious, one more thing, because I think when we're, especially if someone's interested in creating something like this, I think it's really easy to kind of haul off and say, okay, but I can offer this and then I'll offer this, and then I get really excited by that. But you really do have to think about fulfillment and also roi.

[00:41:50] Jaymi Heimbuch: The whole idea of like, okay, so folks are paying to support me. I don't wanna use all of that on the bene. Like I don't want it to go right back out the door in terms. Prints or [00:42:00] cards or, you know, postcards or this or that. And so I think it's really important to think about, okay, if you wanna set something like this up, that's why the, the idea of creating these one-on-one calls with people, I think is so smart because it's often what we crave the most.

[00:42:15] Jaymi Heimbuch: And other than time, it doesn't cost you anything to actually fulfill this benefit. which actually makes me think of another question. One of the things that I'm curious about is as you're talking, because I know as a teacher or an instructor of conservation photography, I learn every day from my students who are bringing in different ideas or perspectives or problems that we have to overcome together and learning different strategies and techniques and so much.

[00:42:41] Jaymi Heimbuch: So I'm curious if you've been learning along the way as you talk with the folks who are in the tier, or what has that experience been like for you as a mentor to be offering this and to kind of have this open up as like a realm that you're in as a photographer?

[00:42:57] Shane Gross: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's [00:43:00] absolutely been incredibly illuminating which makes me feel guilty sometimes that, that they're paying for this , but I'm getting so much outta it. Um, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is, you know, The the mentees are, are all over the world. So I'm getting like a local's look at the issues in their area, issues that I would have no exposure to, no idea about if, if I wasn't talking to them.

[00:43:28] Shane Gross: So that's the first thing. And I, and I'm very sort of ocean focused and, and in that realm, but a lot of my mentees aren't. So I'm also getting a peek at what it's like to do jungle photography or desert photography or, or some of the things that they're into that I've never experienced. I don't know what specialized equipment they need.

[00:43:50] Shane Gross: And so I'm absorbing all that, which will eventually or already is beneficial to me and my, my photography and my [00:44:00] goals personally. But it's also, leading to what I, what I think are genuine friendships. And if they were to. Stop with the Patreon thing, I think we would still be friends and I think we would talk, and I think we'd want to maybe collaborate someday on, on stories.

[00:44:16] Shane Gross: And it's just, it's just been wonderful. I mean, you, you can see people on social media and respect their work and blah, blah, blah, but, but actually sitting down and having a conversation with them, it's just so much better and different and, and more rich, so many ways.

[00:44:33] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Oh, that's awesome. What do you like as a mentor?

[00:44:36] Shane Gross: I try to preface by saying, I'm, I'm not the be all and end all in this, and what you're getting is my opinion and you know, this is how I do it, but that might not necessarily be the best way, but here's one way.

[00:44:53] Jaymi Heimbuch: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:54] Shane Gross: And so it's, it's really a, a conversation and I, and I also try to [00:45:00] just tell them my experience so that they can sponge in.

[00:45:05] Shane Gross: Experience as well and learn from it. Cuz I've made a lot of mistakes out there and they can learn from those and they can learn from my successes. And then I want to hear about what they're doing and, and hopefully try to just sort of put some ideas in their head or, or help them to look at an issue a different way or I'm very understanding, but also if something isn't good enough, I'll tell them.

[00:45:30] Shane Gross: And I think that honesty is super important. Again, going back to that conversation with Tom Peche in, in 2014. I mean, he was brutal, but I loved it. Like I really, really. I, I can remember it better than I can remember. You know, what I did yesterday, this conversation. And he, you know, and he would say things like, what were you thinking?

[00:45:54] Shane Gross: And, and don't ever show this photo to anybody ever again. And I found it [00:46:00] absolutely hilarious. And sometimes when I tell that story, people are like, oh, he's mean. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That is the biggest gift that he could have given me, is just brutal honesty. And so while I tend to word it more delicately than he does I try to, I try to be that honest as well, because, you know, , he posts something on social media and there's no dislike button.

[00:46:22] Shane Gross: You know, you can only like it and, and generally, like I, I don't want to be a negative person on, on Instagram or something and tell them that their picture sucks. That, I don't know, that feels distasteful, but if it's a one-on-one conversation and the photo isn't good enough where the story isn't, isn't good enough, or here's how they, and, and more importantly how they can improve, instead of just saying, no, it's not good enough.

[00:46:46] Shane Gross: Have you thought of this? Or maybe try this next time. Or look at these 30 other photographers who have better photos of that, and maybe you can get some ideas there. It's, it's, it's about, you know, trying [00:47:00] to help them get to the next, the next level.

[00:47:03] Jaymi Heimbuch: Nice. Okay, so patreon.com/shane gross. I'm gonna put the link in the show notes as well. I think that this is such an incredible opportunity and of course, like if, even if folks don't have $50 a month for mentorship, they can still support your work for $5 a month, $10 a month, whatever it may be to be able to help out.

[00:47:23] Jaymi Heimbuch: And I think that's such an insane opportunity. Mentorship sitting down with people. It is the best investment you can make ever. So yeah, I'm super stoked that this is, this is part of what you do. Now. There's something else that you have done that is out there in the world that I really wanna talk about, which is your Bahamas underwater book.

[00:47:43] Jaymi Heimbuch: So do you mind if we spend some time, I know that we're nearing the hour mark, and I like to be really respectful of people's times. Try and cap it around an hour. But I really wanna talk about your book. Do you mind if we dive in?

[00:47:55] Shane Gross: No, I love talking about my book. Are you kidding?

[00:47:57] Jaymi Heimbuch: Excellent. Awesome. Okay. So Bahamas [00:48:00] underwater. What was the impetus for the book? What was the creation process like? What has it been like since it's been out? How do you promote it? All the things.

[00:48:09] Shane Gross: Well it started, so when I was living in The Bahamas, it was this tiny little island, like 2000 people on it, Harbor Island. And, but it had a little local art gallery, princess Street Art Gallery. And I went in there and I was like, you know, would you want to have some of my prints in your gallery?

[00:48:25] Shane Gross: And they were very kind and said yes. And I got a few in there and, We were building a relationship over years. And then I went in there one day and they said, oh, you know what would be really helpful is if you had a little print book, like just a little, like it could be five by seven or whatever that, you know, cuz we can't carry all your prints all the time.

[00:48:47] Shane Gross: And sometimes they, they sell very rarely, but sometimes they would sell. And so it would be helpful. So I started putting together this a little five by seven book of different print options that somebody could get. And because it was a remote place, we would [00:49:00] ship it directly to their house and blah, blah, blah.

[00:49:02] Shane Gross: Anyway, I started putting that together and it, and it sort of dawned on me that, whoa, maybe there's an actual real book here. Um, And so I started thinking about that and what that would mean and how I could structure it. And I completely abandoned the print book. I never did do one . I still feel bad about that.

[00:49:20] Shane Gross: Um, But I completely dove in, as you would say to This sort of quote unquote real book. And I wanted, you know, wanted it to be simple, but hopefully enjoyable for people. So I split it up into chapters by topic, like chapter one is sharks and rays. Chapter two is marine mammals. And then we get into coral wreaths.

[00:49:42] Shane Gross: And then of course, I wanted to get into some of the issues that are, that are facing The Bahamas. So we have an invasive species of fish, lion fish that are super destructive. So I did a chapter on that. A chapter on Nassau grouper, which were moved to the critically endangered list, yet are still heavily fished.

[00:49:59] Shane Gross: They're on every [00:50:00] menu in The Bahamas. Plastic pollution, climate change in ocean, ocean acidification. So I wanted, I wanted it to be a fun book that people would enjoy, but still, you know, doesn't ignore the issues. So I put this book together and, and Looked at the expense of like, okay, am I gonna print this myself?

[00:50:20] Shane Gross: Do I take it to a publisher? What do I do? And it was such a niche book because it's about this little country with 300,000 people that no publishers really wanted to touch it. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll, I'll just get it printed myself. And I looked at the expense of printing and was like, well, I can't afford that, which is, which ended up being a great thing because I reached out to a friend who is the executive director of a an NGO called Brief, The Bahamas Reef Environmental and Educational Foundation, told her about the idea and she loved it.

[00:50:55] Shane Gross: And she said, well, I think I can raise the money for the printing. [00:51:00] And we basically, we did a back and forth of how it could benefit them and how it could benefit me. They went ahead and raised the money. Rolex was the main sponsor, although there was many individuals and, and, and people who, who sponsored the, the printing of the books.

[00:51:15] Shane Gross: So it didn't cost brief anything, which was great. And then I basically, from that printing, they got a bunch of books that they can then go ahead and, and sell and they keep that money. And in our agreement, I, I said, I basically trust you and I do, they're really small, but really powerful organization.

[00:51:38] Shane Gross: And they're audited and they're a non-profit. So I was like, the, there's not gonna be like embezzlement or something, which you do have to watch out for in, in, in The Bahamas, especially with, with the government. But anyway, not to get off on that. I was really a big fan of their kids' sea camps. So this might be a slightly dated statistic, but just, [00:52:00] you know, a few years ago, the statistic was that 80% of Bahamians never learned how to swim.

[00:52:07] Shane Gross: And they're in this ocean nation, all this beauty around them, 80% don't know how to swim. And I, and, and I looked at what brief was doing with their kids sea camps, taking school children into the ocean, under the supervision of marine biologists, telling them about the ocean, about conservation. I just thought that, that that was a way to have a long-term conservation impact.

[00:52:34] Shane Gross: It, it, it can be very, you know, oh, I got this many clicks or this many likes, or, you know, h how do you, how do you actually make real conservation change? How do you actually push that needle? And I thought that would be a way to, that I could contribute and make a real positive long. Change. And so they are selling the book and they're taking that money and it's going directly to, to teaching kids about [00:53:00] the ocean in The Bahamas.

[00:53:00] Shane Gross: And so it's just been unbelievably fulfilling and wonderful, and I'm really proud of it. So thank you so much for bringing it up.

[00:53:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: Oh my gosh, that's a even better story than I could have hoped for in terms of book creation and why it exists in the world and what it's doing for the world. It's also an insanely gorgeous book. I mean, the images that are in this are beautiful.

[00:53:23] Jaymi Heimbuch: And honestly, I think for photographers, not only would buying this be an investment in a cause that's really important, but it would be an investment in yourself. Because I feel like going through this book and seeing how you've photographed species developed storytelling images how you've broken up the idea of drawing people into something really beautiful and fun and interesting, but also presenting the very real important issues like as a storyteller, this is an item that is a great piece of inspirational research too.

[00:53:54] Jaymi Heimbuch: So again, thank you for putting this out in the world to, for us as a, as a resource [00:54:00] when people go to buy this book. And it's at shane gross.com. , you get a hard copy delivered to your door. Is that right?

[00:54:07] Shane Gross: Correct.

[00:54:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: Do you ever get any updates or information about the C camps as well that you're supporting through

[00:54:13] Shane Gross: Yes. I mean it's, you know, when I, when I came up with the idea of the book and everything, I was still living in The Bahamas. , but I've, I went on on many of these C camps and saw it for myself and spent time with the kids and, and photographed them. And some of the pictures are in the book because of the pandemic and blah, blah.

[00:54:32] Shane Gross: And, and, and another idea that we were hoping to do, and well, okay, I need to back up a little bit. Another stipulation was that I wanted this book to go in every school in The Bahamas, there's only, you know, a about 250 schools in The Bahamas. I was like, okay, 250 books, one at least to every school in The Bahamas.

[00:54:52] Shane Gross: And that we have done, we've, we've fulfilled that covid delayed a little bit cuz the kids weren't in school anyway and blah, blah, blah. Now the books are in the schools. [00:55:00] What I wanted to do was then go around to as many schools as possible and give a presentation and, and then leave them with the book that we haven't done yet.

[00:55:09] Shane Gross: And the kids c camps also got somewhat delayed due to covid, but now they're, they're, they're back and running and so yeah, I would like, I'd love to go back and, and, See them again and do them again and be involved again. Yeah, absolutely. They're, they're just a wonderful thing. The kids have a ball. I mean, they have so much fun.

[00:55:28] Shane Gross: I don't even know if they're learning about , about conservation, but they are, they, they definitely are learning about it, but it's a very fun, subtle way to learn about it and, and hopefully a way that will, that will stick with them. And they're meeting amazing people. I mean, I profile some sea heroes in here.

[00:55:45] Shane Gross: Crystal Ambrose is, is a, a Bahamian woman who started The Bahamas plastic movement that led to The Bahamas banning single use plastics. I mean, just and she goes on, these kids see camps frequently and, you know, I mean, [00:56:00] it, it's an an incredible thing.

[00:56:02] Jaymi Heimbuch: Wow. That makes me so happy. The, like, I, I also think it makes me really happy because hearing what you've done with this book and what your goals were, reminds me, reminds us all about how possible it is. Even with a seemingly small, like this was no small effort. This was a lot of work. I know, but at the same time, like you're thinking 250 schools.

[00:56:26] Jaymi Heimbuch: When you say something like, I want it in every school in The Bahamas, that sounds big and daunting. But then when you actually say the number, oh, 250 schools, oh, that's 250 books. Okay. That feels so doable. So the idea of taking this really audacious goal and saying like, let's say you're, you know, in the US and you're like, I want my book to be in every school in the state.

[00:56:47] Jaymi Heimbuch: Okay, but how many is that? All right. Look how doable that is. Like you can make that happen and think about how many people that could influence. Cause I remember, I can see so vividly the school library when I was in, you [00:57:00] know, third grade and I knew exactly where the books were. The I wanted to go, just like you were talking about, you knew where all the shark books were, I knew where all the horses and dinosaur books were.

[00:57:08] Jaymi Heimbuch: And I still remember how much fun it was whenever our classroom would get. Once a week. We get our chance as a classroom to walk over, go through the library. You pick out two books, like your book is now. In a situation like that, helping people, how inspiring it is to think as a conservation photographer, not only might you be thinking about working with nonprofits or getting your, you know, photo stories and publications, whatever it is, think about how influential you can be by taking your very favorite topics, creating a book and getting that into schools that is just so, and, and in a big way, like in a way that could influence thousands and thousands of students who ultimately will see this over, over time in the school library.

[00:57:48] Jaymi Heimbuch: That's so inspiring to me. I just absolutely adore

[00:57:52] Shane Gross: I think it's, I think it's super cool. And when I looked around I was like, there is no book like this. Like there isn't a book about The Bahamas [00:58:00] Ocean World available. And I was like, well, that's crazy. And there was a little bit of a, you know, I was like, man, probably am I a foreigner, a Canadian, the person to do this?

[00:58:10] Shane Gross: But I, I sort of, I try to think of it more as like, as a, as a, as a gift, as as a love letter to The Bahamas. And I, and it's been received very well. I've, I've definitely gotten a lot of emails and, you know, dms and stuff from parents and even kids themselves of, of how much they like the books.

[00:58:28] Shane Gross: So it's been, it's been really nice.

[00:58:30] Jaymi Heimbuch: That makes me so happy. My brain is already going with like, Ooh, could you put a spin on it and get it into, you know, travel bookstores and could you put a spin on it and get it into, you know, like, I'm just trying to think about how far this beautiful piece that you've created could go in

[00:58:47] Shane Gross: I think. Yeah. I think I need to hire you. You can, you can come work on my my things for a bit.

[00:58:54] Jaymi Heimbuch: I've got like all these marketing funnels in mind well, thank you so much for, for this gift to the world [00:59:00] as well. You are just, you're such an inspiration. I've been following your work for a long time, but to actually get to sit down and talk with you is absolutely a joy. So thank you so much for taking time out of your day to talk about everything that you do as an underwater photographer for all the work that you do, inspiring and helping photographers on a daily basis.

[00:59:20] Jaymi Heimbuch: It's a really, really big deal and I'm so grateful that you're a conservation photographer.

[00:59:25] Shane Gross: Well, thank you so much for having me and, and all those very nice things that you said to me back at you times 10. I'm a huge, huge fan and this was such a joy and, and we should, we should talk again sometime. We don't have to record it, but I'd love to, to sit down and chat with you, you know, lots more into the.

[00:59:43] Jaymi Heimbuch: Awesome. Well, so for everyone listening, remember we've got shane gross.com to be able to check out all of Shane's work, The Bahamas book, Bahamas Underwater. And there's also patreon.com/shane gross. If you wanna go check out the membership tiers and become a [01:00:00] supporter of his work.

[01:00:00] Jaymi Heimbuch: Shane, thank you so very much and for everyone listening, we'll talk to you again next week.